Our Common Text 2004-2005
ROUGHLY EDITED COPY
ROCHESTER INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY
COMMON TEXT SERIES.
PRESENTERS: JEANNETTE MITCHELL, ECONOMICS
JENNIFER WOLFLEY, LANGUAGE AND LITERATURE
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This text is being provided in a rough draft format. Communication Access Realtime Translation (CART) is provided in order to facilitate communication accessibility and may not be a totally verbatim record of the proceedings.
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Good evening. I'm Linda Reinfeld, member of the language and Literature Department here at RIT, and Chair of the Common Text Committee. This is the first of the three events we're holding this quarter in conjunction with our reading of the common text, House of Sand and Fog by Andre Dubus III. Next week, same time same place, we'll hear Professor Babak Elahi speak on “Representing Iran," and the next week, January 19th, we'll hear the author himself.
Our first speaker tonight will be Jeannette Mitchell, a professor of Economics and member of the College of Liberal Arts for 14 years. Before that, she was a practicing nurse while she worked her way through a PhD program in Economics. One of her current research interests is Bullying in the Workplace -- a particularly relevant topic for women and for our discussion here today.
Our second speaker, Jennifer Wolfley, is originally form NYC and has been a member of the Language and Literature Department faculty for four years. She has also worked at Attica, Groveland, and Albion correctional facilities teaching and providing administrative programming to inmates. Currently Jen runs a Whispers group at the Monroe Correctional Facility and several support groups for women who have a history of sexual, emotional, and physical abuse. She is also Program director for the Mary Magdalene Women's Outreach Center, in Rochester, which is a non-denominational not-for-profit agency that works primarily with commercial sex workers.
[NOTE: Due to technical difficulties, transcription for the first few minutes of Jeannette Mitchell’s talk is not available. She is currently working to reconstruct the beginning, at which point this transcript will be amended.]
..
..NOW, WHAT CAN AN ECONOMIST BRING TO A DISCUSSION OF THIS NOVEL?
THE BOOK IS SO INCREDIBLY RICH
I FEEL CERTAIN I'LL NOT DO IT
JUSTICE IN A TALK LASTING JUST
A FEW MOMENTS.
THE AUTHOR'S USE OF ANALOGY,
THE INDIVIDUAL CHARACTERS
THEIR COMPLEX INTERACTIONS ARE SO WELL DEVELOPED AND FULL OF
DEPTH AND COMPLEX THAT I FEEL
FOR SURE I'M GOING TO FALL
SHORT, AND ANY SHORT
DISCUSSION IS GOING TO SEEM
SHALLOW BY COMPARISON.
BUT I HAVE BEEN ASKED TO LOOK
AT THE FEMINIST ISSUES AND
ECONOMIC ISSUES IN THE NOVEL
AND SO I'LL TRY TO DO THEM
SOME JUSTICE HERE.
I TAKE AWAY FROM THE NOVEL
THREE MAIN THEMES: IMPORTANT
THEMES IN THE MIND OF A
FEMINIST AND AN ECONOMIST.
THESE ARE THE IMPACTS OF
MENTAL ILLNESS, DEPRESSION IN
PARTICULAR, POWER RELATIONS
AND THE DEPICTION IN THE NOVEL
OF THE AMERICAN DREAM.
LET US BEGIN WITH MENTAL
ILLNESS AND OUR MAJOR
PROTAGONIST, KATHY.
MOST PEOPLE IN THIS ROOM,
PERHAPS WOMEN IN PARTICULAR,
STARTING WITH KATHY, FOUND HER
TO BE THE MOST REPREHENSIBLE
MISREPRESENTATION OF MISNOMERS
ABOUT WOMEN, THAT WOMEN LACK
RESPONSIBILITY AND SHE LACKED
THE CHARACTER TO TAKE
RESPONSIBILITY FOR HER
SITUATION; THAT SHE LACKED THE
CAPACITY TO HANDLE THE
STRESSES OF EVEN THE SIMPLEST
OF TASKS, AND THAT ALL OF THE
HORRORS THAT UNFOLD IN THE
NOVEL COULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED
HAD SHE SIMPLY OPENED HER
MAIL.
WE MIGHT CONCLUDE AS SOME OF
THE REVIEWERS OF THE FILM DID
THAT "EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS
IN THE MOVIE COULD HAVE BEEN
AVOIDED IF KATHY JUST OPENED
HER FREAKING MAIL," OR
"EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS IN
THIS BLOATED LIFETIME MOVIE
COULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED IF THE
HEROINE HADN'T SPENT MONTHS
WALLOWING IN SELF-PITY SO THAT
SHE COULDN'T OPEN HER MAIL.
SHE CONTINUALLY SOUGHT MALE
APPROVAL.
I DON'T THINK IT'S TOO MUCH OF
A STRETCH TO CONCLUDE THAT HER
ENTIRE ATTEMPT TO RECLAIM THE
HOUSE WAS AN ATTEMPT TO REGAIN
HER FATHER'S APPROVAL.
SHE TURNS TO MEMORIES OF NICK,
OF LESTER AND THEN HER
BROTHER.
KATHY APPEARS PATHETIC AND
REPREHENSIBLE, AN
EMBARRASSMENT TO WOMEN
EVERYWHERE.
IF THIS IS A SIMPLISTIC VIEW,
THERE'S LITTLE DOUBT SHE WAS
SUFFERING FROM CLINICAL
DEPRESSION.
PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOT SUFFERED
THROUGH DEPRESSION FIRSTHAND,
THROUGH A FAMILY MEMBER, OR
ARE NOT MEMBERS OF THE MEDICAL
PROFESSION MAY SEE INDIVIDUALS
IN THE LIGHT THAT I JUST
PAINTED KATHY, BUT DEPRESSION
IS A PHYSICAL PROBLEM, NOT A
PROBLEM OF CHARACTER.
I WISH TO REITERATE THAT.
IN ORDER TO UNDERSTAND AND BE
SYMPATHETIC WITH OUR PRIMARY
FEMALE PROTAGONIST, IT'S
IMPORTANT TO REALIZE THAT
DEPRESSION IS A REAL ILLNESS,
NOT A PRETEND DIAGNOSIS MADE
UP TO MAKE FLAKY FEMALES LOOK
NORMAL.
IT'S ADDITIONALLY A PROBLEM
THAT AFFECTS ALL OF US THROUGH
ECONOMIC REPERCUSSIONS.
LET ME BORE YOU WITH A FEW
STATISTICS ON DEPRESSION.
ONE IN FOUR PEOPLE WILL
DEVELOP ONE OR MORE MENTAL OR
BEHAVIORAL DISORDERS AT SOME
TIME IN THEIR LIFE.
DEPRESSION IS ONE OF THE MORE
COMMON OF THESE ILLNESSES,
CHARACTERIZED BY SADNESS, LOSS
OF INTEREST IN ACTIVITIES AND
DECREASED ENERGY.
SUICIDE REMAINS ONE OF THE
MOST COMMON AND SOMETIMES
UNAVOIDABLE OUTCOMES OF
DEPRESSION.
OVER 120 MILLION PEOPLE
CURRENTLY SUFFER FROM
DEPRESSION WORLDWIDE ACCORDING
TO THE WORLD HEALTH
ORGANIZATION.
IN THE UNITED STATES, OVER 12
MILLION WOMEN ARE DEPRESSED IN
ANY PARTICULAR YEAR.
I'M NOT REFERRING TO
MELANCHOLY OR SADNESS BECAUSE
OF THE WEATHER IN ROCHESTER.
I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT STRESS
AND ANXIETY BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT
PREPARED FOR YOUR ECONOMICS
TEST ON MONDAY; I'M REFERRING
TO THE PHYSICAL AND CHEMICAL
CHANGES THAT OCCUR IN THE BODY
BECAUSE OF THE EXTREME STRESS
THAT CAN RESULT IN DEPRESSION.
WOMEN ARE TWICE AS LIKELY TO
SUFFER DEPRESSION THAN MEN.
ONE THIRD OF DEPRESSED PERSONS
ALSO EXHIBIT ADDICTIVE
BEHAVIOR: ALCOHOL, DRUGS OR
OTHER FORMS OF ADDICTION.
IT SOUNDS LIKE KATHY, DOES IT
NOT?
BY 2020, DEPRESSION WILL BE
THE LARGEST AND MOST EXPENSIVE
ILLNESS TO PEOPLE IN THE
DEVELOPING WORLD.
IN ADDITION, BY THAT SAME
YEAR, SEVERE DEPRESSION WILL
BE THE SECOND LARGEST CAUSE OF
DEATH AND DISABILITY IN THE
DEVELOPED WORLD, INCLUDING THE
UNITED STATES.
IN THE UNITED STATES, WE SPEND
NEARLY 14% OF OUR TOTAL
NATIONAL INCOME ON HEALTH
CARE.
IT IS ESTIMATED THAT
DEPRESSION ALONE ACCOUNTS FOR
A LOSS OF 10% OF A NATION'S
PRODUCTIVE YEARS, COSTING THE
UNITED STATES OVER $53 BILLION
A YEAR IN LOST PRODUCTIVITY.
THESE ARE CONSERVATIVE
ESTIMATES, AS MANY CASES GO
UNREPORTED AND UNTREATED.
ALLOW ME TO DIVERT: BULLYING
IN THE WORKPLACE.
IT WILL BE A BRIEF DIGRESSION
AND HAVE A POINT AT THE END.
BULLYING IS DEFINED AS "WHEN
SOMEONE AT WORK IS SUBJECTED
TO AGGRESSIVE BEHAVIOR FROM
CO-WORKERS OR COLLEAGUES IN A
SITUATION WHERE THE TARGET
FINDS IT DIFFICULT TO DEFEND
HIM OR HERSELF OR ESCAPE THE
SITUATION."
THE DEFINITION INCLUDES A
FEELING OF POWERLESSNESS.
ALTHOUGH MEN HAVE BEEN KNOWN
TO BE VICTIMS OF BULLYING,
WOMEN ARE THE USUAL TARGET.
IN ADDITION, RESEARCH
INDICATES THAT THE PERPETRATOR
IS IN AN OVERWHELMING MAJORITY
OF CASES A WHITE MALE.
IN MY RESEARCH, I HAVE
INTERVIEWED SEVERAL VICTIMS OF
BULLYING, THE STORIES ENGAGING
AND FRIGHTENING.
DEPRESSION IS NOT A CHARACTER
FLAW BUT A REAL
PHYSIOLOGICALLY BASED ILLNESS
AND KATHY'S ACTIONS WERE AS A
RESULT OF THIS.
SUCH AN EXPLANATION OF HER
BEHAVIOR ALLOW US TO ESCHEW
THE STEREOTYPES OF WOMEN AND
ALLOW US TO UNDERSTAND BETTER
HER ACTIONS THAT SEEM,
ADMITTEDLY, QUITE ABSURD TO
MANY READERS.
ONE OF THE VICTIMS OF BULLYING
THAT I INTERVIEWED IN MY
RESEARCH, JANE DOE, TO PROTECT
HER ANONYMITY.
SHE'S A PROFESSIONAL WOMAN,
COMPLETED A BACHELOR'S DEGREE
AND WENT ON TO WORK.
SHE ACCEPTED A POSITION WITH A
COMPANY THAT PROMISED UPWARD
MOBILITY AND A SUITABLE WORK
ENVIRONMENT.
HER SUPERVISOR TURNED OUT TO
BE A BULLY IN THE EXTREME.
HE DEMEANED JANE, TO QUESTION
HER COMPETENCE.
HE DEFAMED HER CO-WORKERS AND
USED HER WORK SCHEDULES TO
INTIMIDATE AND CONTROL JANE
AND HER CO-WORKERS.
JANE LIVED WITH THIS A NUMBER
OF YEARS.
YOU MIGHT ASK WHY DIDN'T SHE
JUST LEAVE?
WHY DIDN'T SHE JUST PICK UP
AND LEAVE?
THAT'S AN EASIER THING TO SAY
THAN DO WHEN YOU'RE A
PROFESSIONAL.
YOU CAN'T JUST PICK UP AND
LEAVE WHEN YOU'RE A
PROFESSIONAL.
IN ADDITION, THERE ARE LETTERS
OF RECOMMENDATIONS TO BE
CONSIDERED.
WHO DO YOU GO TO FOR A LETTER
OF RECOMMENDATION BUT YOUR
SUPERVISOR?
(Please stand by; we're
experiencing technical
difficulties; 1 to 2 minutes
missing)
SHE SURVIVED COLLEGE, GRADUATE
SCHOOL, NOT AN EASY THING TO
SURVIVE, NOT SOMEONE YOU WOULD
CONSIDER AN EMOTIONAL BASKET
CASE.
THIS IS WHAT SHE BECAME.
SHE WAS UNABLE TO FOCUS OR
CONCENTRATE.
SHE STARTED MISSING WORK AND
THE WORK SHE TURNED IN WAS
SHODDY.
SHE WAS BECOMING IN SHORT WHAT
HER BOSS HAD ACCUSED HER OF
BEING ALL ALONG.
ACCORDING TO HER PHYSICIAN,
THE EXTREME STRESS TO WHICH
SHE WAS EXPOSED TRIGGERED A
PHYSIOLOGICAL CHANGE, A
CHEMICAL IMBALANCE IN HER
BRAIN THAT MADE HER BEHAVE THE
WAY SHE WAS.
SHE TOOK LEAVE FROM WORK AND
THE THREE MONTHS SHE WAS OFF,
HER DEPRESSION WORSENED.
SHE WOULDN'T CALL HER FAMILY,
HAD NO CONTACT WITH FAMILY.
REMEMBER KATHY NO CONTACT WITH
THE FAMILY, NOT WANTING TO
TALK TO ANYONE.
SHE CLOSED HERSELF OFF IN HER
RESIDENCE, KEPT HER SHADES
PULLED.
SHE DIDN'T BATHE FOR THREE
MONTHS.
SHE STOPPED BRUSHING HER
TEETH.
SHE REPORTS THAT HER HAIR
BECAME SO KNOTTED AND FILTHY,
SHE HAD TO USE COOKING OIL
EVENTUALLY TO GET OUT THE
KNOTS.
SHE PAID ONLY HER RENT AND LET
HER CREDIT CARDS GO.
HER CREDIT WAS SHOT AFTER
THREE MONTHS.
A WOMAN WHO COULD HANDLE
PRESSURES OF GRADUATE SCHOOL
AND A FULL-TIME JOB, AT THE
HEIGHT OF THIS, COULDN'T EVEN
WRITE A CHECK FOR A PHONE
BILL.
HER APPETITE SUFFERED AND SHE
LOST WEIGHT.
AT ONE TIME SHE HAD OVER 13
BAGS OF GARBAGE THAT NEEDED TO
GO OUT IN HER HOME AND HER
HOUSE WAS BEGINNING TO SMELL.
SHE DID NOT HAVE A CHARACTER
FLAW.
SHE HAD DEPRESSION BROUGHT ON
BY STRESS.
IN HER DESPERATION, SHE SOUGHT
ACCEPTANCE AND ADMIRATION
THROUGH INTERNET CHAT ROOMS.
SHE RECEIVED ENOUGH
SELF-ESTEEM FROM THESE FANTASY
WORLDS EVENTUALLY TO START
TREATMENT.
SHE SAW A DOCTOR AND STARTED
THERAPY.
SHE'S MUCH BETTER.
LAST NIGHT I CALLED HER TO
FIND OUT HOW SHE'S DOING.
SHE REPORTS SHE'S OFF
MEDICATION AND OUT OF THERAPY.
SHE STILL HAS A SEVERE STARTLE
RESPONSE, WHICH IS A SYMPTOM
OF POST-TRAUMATIC STRESS
SYNDROME, WHICH IS ANY KIND OF
LITTLE NOISE AND YOU JUMP OUT
OF YOUR SKIN.
SHE STILL BUSTS OUT CRYING AT
THE SIMPLEST OF STRESSES, BUT
I'M HAPPY TO REPORT THAT SHE
PAYS HER PHONE BILL NOW.
SHE STILL CRIES AND BECOMES
EASILY ANGRY AT WHAT MOST
PEOPLE WOULD CONSIDER SMALL
AGGRAVATIONS BUT SHE'S ON THE
ROAD TO RECOVERY.
I WOULD LIKE TO SAY HER
BEHAVIOR IS UNUSUAL AND
EMBARRASSING, BUT IN SO MANY
WOMEN'S LIVES, IT'S REAL.
KATHY WAS NOT NEGLECTFUL OF
HER RESPONSIBILITIES IN NOT
OPENING HER MAIL AND NOT
LISTENING TO HER LAWYER; SHE
WAS DEPRESSED.
HER RETURN TO ALCOHOL IS ALSO
EXPLAINED BY HER DEPRESSION.
IF YOU REMEMBER FROM THE
W.T.O., DEPRESSED PERSONS ARE
MORE LIKELY TO BECOME ADDICTS
AS WELL.
JANE AND KATHY BOTH HAVE
PHYSICAL DISABILITIES THAT
AFFLICT MANY PERSONS, IN
PARTICULAR WOMEN.
WHEN DEALING WITH WOMEN'S
ISSUES, DEPRESSION IS JUST ONE
OF THESE.
IT IS COMMON FOR PEOPLE, EVEN
WOMEN, TO BLAME THE VICTIM.
WHY DIDN'T SHE DO THIS?
WHY DIDN'T SHE DO THAT?
EVEN IN THE MOST EXTREME CASE
OF VIOLENCE AND OPPRESSION IN
THE CASE OF RAPE, WE SAY, "WHY
WAS SHE WEARING THAT DRESS?
WHY DID SHE GO UP TO HIS ROOM?
WHY WAS SHE DRINKING?"
NO ONE ASKS TO BE ABUSED.
NO ONE ASKS TO BE USED IN ONE
OF THE MOST VIOLENT OF WAYS.
MISJUDGMENT ON THE PART OF A
WOMAN DOES NOT LEND
JUSTIFICATION FOR RAPE OR
VIOLENCE.
AS WOMEN ARE MOST OFTEN THE
VICTIMS OF DEPRESSION, THE
VICTIMS OF OPPRESSION, THE
VICTIMS OF VIOLENCE, TO BLAME
THEM IS TO IGNORE THE TRUE
SOURCES OF THESE HORRORS, AND
IGNORING THE HORRORS ALLOWS
THEM TO PERPETUATE.
HAD SHE NOT HAD THE PHYSICAL
ILLNESS, THINGS WOULD NOT HAVE
ESCALATED OUT OF CONTROL, AS
THEY DID IN THE CASE OF THE
NOVEL.
TO BLAME KATHY FOR HER ILLNESS
MISSES, I THINK, AN IMPORTANT
PART OF THE STORY OF WOMEN IN
GENERAL AND KATHY IN
PARTICULAR.
A SECOND THEME THAT SHOUTS OUT
TO ME FROM THE NOVEL IS THAT
OF POWER RELATIONS.
WE'LL CONSIDER IT IN TWO WAYS:
POWER RELATIONS BETWEEN MEN
AND WOMEN AND THE BROADER VIEW
OF POWER RELATIONS IN
CAPITALISM.
POWER RELATIONS BETWEEN MEN
AND WOMEN, IT'S ARGUED THE
ENTIRE BOOK WAS BASED ON THIS,
BUT I THINK IT WOULD BE A
MISUNDERSTANDING AND PAINT THE
BOOK IN A LESS RICH LIGHT.
POWER RELATIONS ARE DEFINITELY
THERE, HOWEVER.
THEY ARE THERE MOST OBVIOUSLY
IN THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN
KATHY AND BEHRANI, THAT THOSE
RELATIONSHIPS ARE ALSO VISIBLE
IN HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH HIS
WIFE AND KATHY AND LESTER.
IN THE END, IT'S THE MEN WHO
TAKE CONTROL OF THE SITUATION
AND THE WOMEN WHO MUST SIT
BACK AND AWAIT THE CONCLUSION
OF THE DRAMA.
BUT LOOKING AT JUST GENDER
RELATIONS IN THE NOVEL MASKS
OTHER THEMES IN THE PAGES.
WHAT GIVES US A SENSE OF
POWER, NOT JUST OVER OURSELVES
AND OTHERS BUT OUR DESTINIES.
IN CAPITALISM, IT COMES
THROUGH FINANCIAL SECURITY AND
OWNERSHIP.
THE HOUSE REPRESENTED FOR EACH
OF OUR MAJOR PROTAGONISTS,
KATHY AND THE COLONEL,
FINANCIAL SECURITY,
ACCEPTANCE, SUCCESS AND
BELONGING, A SENSE NEITHER
RECEIVED FROM THE MENIAL WORK
THEY DID FOR A LIVING.
IT IS OF INTEREST TO NOTE THAT
LESTER AND THE COLONEL HELD
POSITIONS OF POWER.
BEHRANI WAS IN THE STATUS OF
BEING IN THE COMPANY OF THE
SHAH, AND HE KISSED THE SHAH'S
RING FOUR TIMES, SOMETHING ON
WHICH HE PRIDED HIMSELF, AND
LESTER AS A SHERIFF.
BUT THEY WERE POWERLESS.
THE COLONEL HOPED TO RETAIN
POWER THROUGH FINANCIAL GAINS
THAT THE FAMILY WOULD ENJOY IN
SELLING THE PROPERTY.
"THESE HAVE BEEN MY THOUGHTS,
AND THE MOST PLEASING THOUGHTS
FOR I FEEL ONCE AGAIN LIKE A
MAN WITH HIS HANDS ON THE
REINS OF HIS OWN BREAST."
LESTER HOPED TO GAIN POWER
THROUGH THE USE OF THE SAME
PROPERTY, GIVING HIM A
FINANCIALLY FEASIBLE WAY TO
LEAVE A LOVELESS MARRIAGE.
KATHY'S FEELINGS OF POWERLESS
CULMINATED IN HER TRYING TO
TAKE BACK CONTROL OF THE
SITUATION THROUGH SUICIDE.
NADI, THE OTHER FEMALE
CHARACTER, AND ARGUABLY ONE OF
THE MOST SYMPATHETIC IN THE
BOOK, WAS ALSO POWERLESS,
POWERLESS AGAINST A REVOLUTION
THAT FORCED HER TO LEAVE HER
HOME, POWERLESS AGAINST A
LIFESTYLE THEY COULDN'T AFFORD
TO GET A DAUGHTER MARRIED OUT,
POWERLESS IN INFLUENCING HER
HUSBAND TO RETURN THE BUNGALOW
AND DO THE RIGHT THING AND
ULTIMATELY POWERLESS TO
PROTECT HER LIFE AGAINST A
GRIEVING HUSBAND.
THE POWERLESSNESS IN
CONTROLLING ONE'S OWN DESTINY
LEADS TO ANOTHER ECONOMIST
THEME IN PARTICULAR: THE
PORTRAYAL OF THE AMERICAN
DREAM.
WHAT IS THE AMERICAN DREAM AND
OF WHAT DOES IT CONSIST?
THE BOOK MAKES SEVERAL
REFERENCES TO THE AMERICAN
DREAM AND IN ALL OF THE CASES
THE REPRESENTATION IS NOT
FAVORABLE.
I'M REMINDED OF THE
CONVERSATION THAT KATHY HAD
WITH HER IRISH FRIEND WHEN HE
TOLD HER THAT-- WHEN SHE SAID
SHE WAS MOVING TO CALIFORNIA,
THE LAND OF MILK AND HONEY, IF
YOU REMEMBER THAT, HE SAID,
"THE LAND OF MILK AND HONEY,
THAT'S WHAT THEY SAY ABOUT
THIS COUNTRY, THAT AMERICA IS
THE LAND OF MILK AND HONEY,
BUT THEY NEVER TELL YOU THE
MILK'S GONE SOUR AND THE
HONEY'S STOLEN."
THE SEARCH FOR THE AMERICAN
DREAM MAKES STRANGE BEDFELLOWS
IN THE NOVEL.
OUR MALE PROTAGONIST SHARED A
CUP OF TEA WITH AN IRAQI AND
THEY ARE SHARING SOMETHING, A
COMMON ENEMY, THE AMERICAN
DREAM.
"THE AMERICAN DREAM" WAS FIRST
USED BY JAMES TRUSLOW ADAMS,
AN EXPERT ON AMERICA, DEFINING
THE DREAM "A LAND IN WHICH
LIFE SHOULD BE BETTER AND
RICHER AND FULLER FOR EVERYONE
WITH OPPORTUNITY FOR EACH
ACCORDING TO ABILITY AND
ACHIEVEMENT.
IT IS NOT A DREAM OF MOTOR
CARS AND HIGH WAGES BUT SOCIAL
ORDER IN WHICH EACH MAN AND
EACH WOMAN SHALL BE ABLE TO
ATTAIN THE FULLEST STATURE OF
WHICH THEY ARE CAPABLE AND
RECOGNIZED BY OTHERS FOR WHICH
THEY ARE, REGARDLESS OF THE
FORTUITOUS CIRCUMSTANCE OF
BIRTH OR POSITION."
I'LL REPEAT: "THE AMERICAN
DREAM IS A SOCIAL ORDER IN
WHICH EACH MAN AND EACH WOMAN
WILL BE ABLE TO ATTAIN TO THE
FULLEST STATURE OF WHICH THEY
ARE INNATELY CAPABLE AND BE
RECOGNIZED BY OTHERS FOR WHAT
THEY ARE, REGARDLESS OF
FORTUITOUS CIRCUMSTANCES OF
BIRTH OR POSITION."
THIS IS ARGUABLY THE CORE OF
FEMINISM, TO BE TREATED BOTH
AS WOMAN AND AS CAPABLE, NOT
FOR ALL OF US TO BECOME SOME
GENDERLESS, FEATURELESS MASS
OF HUMANITY, BUT A SOCIETY IN
WHICH I CAN BE BOTH WOMAN AND
ACCOMPLISHED, A SOCIETY WHERE
AS A WOMAN WHAT I CAN ATTAIN
IS DETERMINED BY THE AMOUNT OF
WORK I PUT IN AND NOT TO BE
PREJUDGED OR MY FUTURE
PREDETERMINED SIMPLY BASED ON
BIASED GENDER VIEWS.
JANE DOE-- REMEMBER JANE? --
THE SAME BULLY OF A BOSS
ADMITTED TO HER ONCE IN A
PRIVATE CONVERSATION THAT THE
ONLY REASON SHE WAS
INTERVIEWED AND HIRED WAS
BECAUSE HE WAS FORCED TO HIRE
A WOMAN CANDIDATE BY THE
EMPLOYER'S AFFIRMATIVE ACTION
POLICY.
HE ADMITTED SHE WAS EQUALLY
AND PROBABLY EVEN MORE
QUALIFIED THAN ANY OF THE MALE
APPLICANTS, BUT HE WOULD HAVE
HIRED A MALE ANYWAY BECAUSE HE
LIKES TO WORK WITH PEOPLE THAT
ARE LIKE HIM, NAMELY WHITE AND
MALE.
I REMEMBER SITTING NEXT TO A
VICE-PRESIDENT OF A MAJOR
CORPORATION-- YOU WOULD
RECOGNIZE THE CORPORATION'S
NAME IF I SAID IT, BUT I WON'T
SAY IT FOR ANONYMITY PURPOSES.
I WAS IN FIRST CLASS, BUMPED
BY AN ACCIDENT THAT THE
AIRLINE HAD MADE, A MISTAKE
THEY MADE, SO THEY PUT ME IN
FIRST CLASS.
I'M SEATED NEXT TO HIM, NOT
CERTAIN HOW WE GOT ON TO THE
TOPIC OF WOMEN EXECUTIVES, BUT
WE DID.
HE RELATED TO ME A STORY ABOUT
A MEETING OF SENIOR
VICE-PRESIDENTS AND THE C.E.O.
OF THE CORPORATION IN WHICH
THEY WERE DECIDING ON A FEW
IMPORTANT PROMOTIONS.
BOTH A MAN AND WOMAN WERE UP
FOR A PARTICULAR PROMOTION.
HE REPORTED TO ME THAT THE
C.E.O. STATED, AND I QUOTE,
"IT WILL BE A COLD DAY IN HELL
BEFORE I GIVE A SKIRT A
POSITION WHERE SHE CAN HAVE
POWER OVER A MAN."
THIS CONVERSATION TOOK PLACE
FOUR YEARS AGO, AND HE'S STILL
REFERRING TO WOMEN AS "A
SKIRT."
MORE MODERN NOTIONS OF THE
AMERICAN DREAM ENCOMPASS THE
HOME WITH THE LITTLE YARD, THE
FINANCIAL STABILITY,
AND THE HOPE THAT OUR CHILDREN
WILL HAVE A MORE ECONOMICALLY
ADVANTAGEOUS POSITION IN THE
WORLD THAN THE POSITION IN
WHICH WE FIND OURSELVES.
EVEN MORE IMPORTANTLY, I THINK
IT EMPHASIZES CONTROL OF OUR
OWN LIVES AND OUR OWN
DESTINIES, A FEELING THAT WHO
WE ARE AND WHERE WE ARE IS
BECAUSE OF WHAT WE HAVE DONE.
I'M GOING TO DIGRESS JUST A
SECOND MORE.
I TALKED TO SOME OF MY CLASSES
TODAY ABOUT BILL GATES.
HE'S NOT ONE OF MY FAVORITE
PEOPLE ON THE PLANET, BUT WE
WERE TALKING ABOUT "CAN YOU
BECOME A BILL GATES?"
ACCORDING TO THE IDEOLOGY OF
CAPITALISM, i.e. THE AMERICAN
DREAM, WHO IS TO BLAME FOR YOU
NOT BEING A BILL GATES?
YOU DIDN'T WORK ENOUGH OR
WEREN'T SMART ENOUGH; IT IS
YOUR FAULT.
IT'S ANOTHER CONDITION OF
BLAMING THE VICTIM.
YOU'LL NOTICE THAT THE BOOK IS
NOT-- WAIT-- OKAY.
WITH HOME OWNERSHIP AND
FINANCIAL SECURITY COMES A
SENSE OF BELONGING TO A
COMMUNITY, A POWER TO CONTROL
YOUR DESTINY AND THE DESTINY
OF A FAMILY.
SOMETHING I NOTICED IS THAT
THE BOOK IS NOT ENTITLED "THE
HOUSE OF SAND AND FOG."
FOR THAT WE DRAW OUR ATTENTION
TO THIS ONE HOUSE AND ONE
CIRCUMSTANCE, TO THIS ONE
AMERICAN DREAM.
"HOUSE OF SAND AND FOG," IN MY
INTERPRETATION, IS ABOUT THE
AMERICAN DREAM, NOT ABOUT HOW
TO ATTAIN IT, AS OUR CHARACTER
STRUGGLED TO DO SO, BUT IT'S
NOT ATTAINABLE; TO CONTROL
ONE'S FINANCIAL SECURITY, TO
HAVE THE REINS ON ONE'S
DESTINY IS BEYOND THE REACH OF
THE VAST AMOUNT OF PERSONS.
IT'S JUST A DREAM, A HOUSE OF
SAND AND FOG, A HOUSE OF NO
SUBSTANCE AND NO FIXED
EXISTENCE.
THANK YOU.
(Applause)
>> GOOD EVENING.
I THINK I'M ON.
I'M VERY APPRECIATIVE TO BE
HERE.
THANK YOU, Dr. REINFELD.
I SORT OF HAVE A DOUBLE LIFE,
A FACULTY MEMBER AT RIT,
TEACHING LANGUAGE AND LIT, AND
ALSO WORKING WITH COMMERCIAL
SEX WORKERS AND PROSTITUTES
AND A LOT OF MY CLIENTS GET
ANNOYED WHEN THEY'RE CALLED
COMMERCIAL SEX WORKERS, BUT
MOST OF MY CLIENTS WILL SAY,
"JUST CALL US HOES" AND "I
DON'T KNOW WHAT THIS
COMMERCIAL SEX WORKER THING
IS."
I'M GOING TO TELL YOU SOME
ANECDOTAL THINGS AND I WANT
YOU TO KEEP IN MIND ONE
PARTICULAR QUESTION: DO WE
SEE KATHY IN ANY OF THESE
STORIES THAT I'M GOING TO BE
TELLING YOU?
WE'LL SEE SOME LESTER TYPES IN
SOME OF THE THINGS I'M GOING
TO TELL YOU AS WELL FROM MY
EXPERIENCES.
I OPERATE AN OUTREACH CENTER
WHICH CLEARLY MEANS THAT
PEOPLE ARE ABLE TO COME IN AND
ACCESS HELP WITHOUT AN
APPOINTMENT.
USUALLY THEY'RE IN CRISIS
MODE; THEY HAVE NUMEROUS
PROBLEMS, WHICH WE'LL TALK
ABOUT IN A MOMENT.
AGAIN, THE QUESTION: DO WE
SEE KATHY IN THESE STORIES?
ANOTHER COMPONENT OF MY
OUTREACH CENTER IS LITERALLY
WHAT IT MEANS, OUTREACH.
I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY OF YOU
ARE FAMILIAR WITH THE
ROCHESTER AREA.
THERE'S SOMETHING CALLED THE
CRESCENT.
YOU USUALLY HEAR ABOUT PEOPLE
GETTING SHOT THERE AND
HORRIBLE THINGS.
ONE OF MY FUNCTIONS IS TO GO
OUT AND ACCESS PEOPLE ON THE
STREET, USUALLY DRUG ADDICTS,
HOMELESS PEOPLE, AND
COMMERCIAL SEX WORKERS, AND SO
IT'S LIKE ANYTHING ELSE; YOU
GO TO THEIR BUSINESS.
THEY'RE NOT GOING TO COME TO
MINE.
I MEET A VARIETY OF PEOPLE OUT
THERE.
YOU KNOW, OFTEN PEOPLE SAY TO
ME HERE AT RIT AND OTHER
VENUES, THEY SAY, JEN, WHAT
ARE PROSTITUTES LIKE?
WHAT ARE DRUG ADDICTS LIKE?
WHAT ARE DRUG DEALERS LIKE?
I SAY TO THEM, "WELL, FIND 20
RANDOM PEOPLE AT RIT, AND OUT
OF 20 RANDOM PEOPLE, YOU'LL
HAVE SOME PEOPLE THAT ARE
NICE, SOME THAT AREN'T, SOME
THAT ARE HAPPY-GO-LUCKY AND
SOME THAT AREN'T, SOME THAT
ARE DRUG ADDICTED AND SOME
THAT AREN'T.
WELL, YOU APPLY THAT TO WHAT'S
ON THE STREET.
YOU TAKE 20 RANDOM PEOPLE OFF
THE STREETS OF ROCHESTER AND
YOU'LL FIND THE SAME THING WE
FIND AT RIT.
DO WE SEE KATHY IN THERE?
CERTAINLY.
KATHY CAN BE ANY ONE OF US,
WHETHER A MALE OR A FEMALE.
I SEE DRUG ADDICTION, CHEMICAL
ADDICTION, ABUSE, EMOTIONAL
ABANDONMENT.
CERTAINLY AS AN EQUAL
OPPORTUNITY, IT DOESN'T MATTER
WHAT GENDER YOU ARE, AND I'LL
TALK MORE ABOUT THAT IN A
MOMENT.
OFTEN PEOPLE SAY TO ME, "GEE,
DO PEOPLE PROSTITUTE OR FIND
THEMSELVES IN CRIMINAL
SITUATIONS BECAUSE OF THE
DRUGS?"
OR IS THE QUESTION "IS IT THE
DRUGS FIRST AND THEN THE
CRIMINAL ACTIVITY OR THE
CRIMINAL ACTIVITY FIRST AND
THEN THE DRUGS?"
WELL, I DON'T KNOW.
YOU TALK WITH 20 DIFFERENT
PEOPLE THAT I WORK WITH AND
THEY HAVE A VARIETY OF
STORIES.
I HAVE PEOPLE THAT DO THE
STRANGEST THINGS FOR DRUGS.
I HAVE PEOPLE THAT DO THE
STRANGEST THINGS BECAUSE
THEY'RE TRYING TO-- OH, I
GUESS I DON'T EVEN WANT TO SAY
REPRESS, BUT THEY'RE TRYING TO
SUFFOCATE AND PUSH DOWN EVERY
EMOTION THAT THEY FEEL, THAT'S
SO RAW AND EXPOSED, THAT THEY
TRY TO FIND A PANACEA WITH
BEHAVIOR AND IT BECOMES PART
OF THEIR EVERY DAY LIFE.
DO WE SEE KATHY IN THAT?
CERTAINLY.
AS MY COLLEAGUE TOUCHED UPON,
KATHY DOES NOT WANT TO OPEN
THE MAIL, CLEARLY AVOIDANCE
BEHAVIOR.
WHATEVER THE ADDICTION IS,
PEOPLE OFTEN SAY, "WELL, I'M
CLEAN NOW AND THIS IS PART OF
MY HISTORY AND I DON'T HAVE TO
WORRY ABOUT HEROIN BECAUSE
THAT WAS IN THE PAST.
I DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT
SHOOTING UP, SPEED-BALLING,
ROBOTRIPPING BECAUSE THAT WAS
IN THE PAST."
SOME OF YOU ARE GIGGLING.
YES, US OLD PEOPLE KNOW WHAT
ROBOTRIPPING IS.
WHEN PEOPLE GO TO RECOVERY
GROUPS, THEY SAY THEY'RE
RECOVERING ADDICTS, NOT A
RECOVERED ADDICT, RECOVERING
BECAUSE THEY'RE ALWAYS IN A
STATE OF TRYING TO MAINTAIN
THAT WELLNESS.
THERE'S SOMETHING CALLED USING
BEHAVIORS.
AGAIN, DO YOU SEE KATHY IN
THIS?
YOU CAN BE DRY;
YOU DON'T HAVE TO PICK UP A
NEEDLE, SNORT COKE, HEROIN,
WHATEVER IT IS.
YOU CAN BE DRY FOR SEVERAL
YEARS, CLEAN AS WE SAY, BUT
YOU STILL HAVE THE USING
BEHAVIORS, MAYBE THE AVOIDING
BEHAVIOR WHERE YOU SAY, "I AM
NOT GOING TO DO THE
RESPONSIBLE THING HERE BECAUSE
IT SUITS ME AT THIS TIME OR
IT'S TOO PAINFUL."
SO YOU FIND OTHER WAYS TO DEAL
WITH THINGS.
FIRST WE SEE IT WITH KATHY
NICOLO, NOT TELLING HER MOTHER
THE TRUTH.
IT'S AVOIDING BEHAVIOR.
MANY PEOPLE IN THIS ROOM KNOW
PEOPLE WHO HAVE HAD SERIOUS
DRUG PROBLEMS.
ONE-IN-SIX PEOPLE BY THE TIME
THEY GET TO YOUR AGE HAVE HAD
SIGNIFICANT DRUG HISTORY, AND
THAT INCLUDES ALCOHOL.
THE POINT I'M GOING TO MAKE IS
THAT KATHY DOESN'T WANT TO
COME CLEAN TO HER MOTHER
ESPECIALLY BECAUSE, IN MY
OPINION, "HOUSE OF SAND AND
FOG" IS A BOOK THAT I AGREE
WITH MY COLLEAGUE IS VERY
RICH, BUT I ALSO SEE IT FROM
ANOTHER STANDPOINT.
I SEE IT ALSO A VERY EMOTIONAL
TEXT THAT IS GENDER-NEUTRAL.
WE'RE LOOKING AT A CHARACTER
THAT WE GET TO KNOW AS KATHY
WHO IS TRULY ABANDONED.
SHE'S ABANDONED BY THIS
HUSBAND, YOU KNOW.
SHE HAS SORT OF THIS
ABANDONMENT OF HER DWELLING.
SHE DOESN'T KNOW WHERE SHE'S
GOING.
SHE HAS THIS PREVIOUS DRUG
HABIT THAT SHE SAYS, "WELL,
YOU KNOW, I'M PAST ALL THAT."
SHE DOESN'T WANT TO TALK TO
HER MOTHER.
EVEN THE CIGARETTES BECOME AN
ISSUE, AND IT'S JUST THIS
CONSTANT SPIRALING EFFECT THAT
WE SEE WITH THIS PARTICULAR
CHARACTER.
YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW HOW
MANY OF YOU IN HERE SAW THE
FILM VERSION OF "HOUSE OF SAND
AND FOG."
WHO SAW THE FILM VERSION?
I'LL SPEAK TO YOU DIRECTLY,
BUT I WANT YOU ALL TO THINK
ABOUT THIS WHEN YOU GO TO SEE
THE FILM VERSION.
THERE'S A PART AT THE END OF
THE FILM, AND I'M NOT GOING TO
GIVE IT AWAY BECAUSE I DON'T
WANT TO RUIN IT FOR YOU, BUT
THERE'S A PART WHERE KATHY
NICOLO LAYS DOWN IN BETWEEN
THE COLONEL AND HIS WIFE AFTER
SOME CIRCUMSTANCES HAVE
HAPPENED.
IF YOU HAVE SEEN THE MOVIE,
YOU KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING
ABOUT.
I'M VERY TAKEN WITH THAT
PARTICULAR PIECE BECAUSE
THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE NOVEL,
KATHY IS VERY CHILDLIKE.
A LOT OF MY ADDICTS THAT I
WORK WITH ARE VERY CHILDLIKE.
TO SOME DEGREE, ALL OF US IN
THIS ROOM ARE VERY CHILDLIKE;
WE WANT TO BE TAKEN CARE OF TO
A CERTAIN DEGREE, NOT TO A
POINT WHERE YOU WIND UP
DEPENDENT ON SOMEBODY, BUT WE
ALL WANT TO FEEL PART OF
SOMETHING.
THAT'S WHY PEOPLE BOTHER GOING
HOME FOR THE HOLIDAYS; IT'S
NOT ONLY THE TURKEY, YOU KNOW.
VERY OFTEN ON THE STREET,
PEOPLE FORM THESE
RELATIONSHIPS THAT I CAN'T
BEGIN TO DESCRIBE TO YOU.
I'LL GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE.
I'VE BEEN IN THE PRISON
BUSINESS, THE JAIL BUSINESS,
FOR 13 YEARS.
WHEN I FIRST WENT TO ALBION
CORRECTIONAL FACILITY, WHICH
IS ALL WOMEN, AND IT SOUNDS
LIKE IT'S IN THE MIDDLE OF
SOME SORT OF RESORT AREA, BUT
YOU FIND THE WOMEN START TO
FORM PARTNERSHIPS, ALLIANCES,
WHAT I WOULD CALL FAMILY.
I WOULD MEET THESE STUDENTS OR
PEOPLE IN THESE PROGRAMS AND
THEY WOULD TELL ME THEIR WIFE
IS COMING TO SEE ME AND
MEANWHILE, THEY'RE ALL WOMEN.
THEY TELL ME, "MY MOTHER IS
COMING."
IN JAIL, YOU GO TO THE
VISITING ROOM AND THAT'S IT;
YOU CAN'T WALK THROUGH.
I STARTED TO REALIZE TWO DAYS
INTO MY WORK THAT THEY WERE
TALKING ABOUT ANOTHER FAMILY
HERE, NOT A STREET FAMILY LIKE
ALL OF US ARE USED TO.
WHY DO THEY FORM FAMILIES?
THEY WANT TO FEEL CARED FOR.
MAYBE THEY FEEL EMOTIONALLY
ABANDONED; CERTAINLY SOCIALLY
ABANDONED.
DO WE SEE KATHY IN THESE
DESCRIPTIONS?
OF COURSE WE DO.
ISOLATED, THAT'S A BIG ONE,
ISOLATED.
I CAN'T TELL YOU HOW MANY
CLIENTS I WORK WITH THAT DO
THE STRANGEST THINGS.
I'LL GIVE YOU ANOTHER EXAMPLE.
I HAD THIS WOMAN WHO WAS 70
YEARS OLD, AND JUDGE KING, WHO
IS IN THE NEWSPAPER QUITE
OFTEN AND RUNS A DRUG COURT--
WHICH IS SORT OF INTERESTING.
IF YOU'RE INTERESTED, ANYBODY
CAN GO.
JUST DON'T BRING ANY KNIVES OR
GUNS WITH YOU AND THEY'LL LET
YOU IN.
IT'S INTERESTING.
IN DRUG COURT IN MONROE
COUNTY, WHICH ISN'T UNDER A
FEDERAL SYSTEM.
EVERY JUDGE AND JURISDICTION
CAN DO IT THEIR OWN WAY.
IF YOU'RE DRUG ADDICTED AND
ARRESTED FOR OFFENSES,
INCLUDING USING, SELLING,
INTENT TO SELL, INTENT TO USE,
INTENT... WHATEVER, IF YOU'RE
DEALING WITH DRUGS AND YOUR
HOUSE IS SEIZED-- IF YOU'RE
ARRESTED FOR DRUGS AND WHAT
NOT, THEY SEIZE WHATEVER
PROPERTY HAPPEN TO BE AROUND
YOU.
ON YOUR FIRST OFFENSE YOU CAN
PLEAD IT OUT, AND THEN THEY
PUT YOU IN DRUG COURT WHERE
YOU HAVE TO TAKE NOTES ALL DAY
OF ALL THE OTHER DRUG ADDICTS
GOING UP IN FRONT OF THE
JUDGE.
I DON'T UNDERSTAND
PHYSIOLOGICALLY WHAT THAT'S
SUPPOSED TO DO FOR A DRUG
ADDICT.
MY COLLEAGUE MENTIONED BEFORE
ABOUT KATHY BEING DEPRESSED, I
THINK IT'S VERY GOOD NOVEL
THAT TALKS ABOUT DEPRESSION.
IT ALSO TALKS ABOUT DRUG
ADDICTION.
DO WE CURE THOSE THINGS WITH
PUTTING SOMEBODY IN A CHAIR
AND HAVING THEM WRITE COPIOUS
NOTES ALL DAY?
SOUNDS LIKE COLLEGE CLASSES, I
KNOW.
THE POINT I'M TRYING TO MAKE
IS IT'S A VERY STRANGE SYSTEM
OUT THERE AND YOU REALLY NEED
TO FIND OUT YOURSELF.
MOST OF THE PEOPLE WHO GO
THROUGH DRUG COURT, A HIGH
RECIDIVISM RATE.
THEY GO BACK TO JAIL BECAUSE
SITTING IN A CHAIR IS NOT
GOING TO FIX SOMEBODY.
JUDGE KING CALLED ME ONE DAY
AND HE SAID, "I HAVE THIS
WOMAN WHO IS 70 YEARS OLD,"
AND EVEN I'M DOING THE MATH,
"70 YEARS OLD, THAT'S OLD!"
WHEN I'M 69, I WON'T FEEL THAT
WHICH, BUT I HAVE A FEW YEARS
YET.
I SAID, "WHAT DO YOU WANT ME
TO DO WITH HER?"
HE SAID, "I DON'T WANT TO
STICK HER IN JAIL.
I NEED TO HAVE HER MAKE SOME
KIND OF RESTITUTION.
COULD SHE COME TO THE WOMEN'S
OUTREACH CENTER AND DO SOME
COOKING, WASH SOME CLOTHES,
HELP HOMELESS WOMEN?"
"OF COURSE YOU CAN."
IN COMES THIS LITTLE GRANDMA,
70 YEARS OLD.
BY LAW, YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO
ASK SOMEONE WHAT THEY'RE
CONVICTED OF, BUT THIS LITTLE
WOMAN IS CRYING HER EYES OUT,
EVEN HAS A HANDKERCHIEF.
YOU COULDN'T BE ANGRY AT THIS
WOMAN.
"I DID HORRIBLE THINGS."
"OH, SHE DIDN'T RETURN A
LIBRARY BOOK."
SHE SAID, "I'M SO ASHAMED AND
EMBARRASSED.
I HAVE ARTHRITIS HERE, AND I
GOT A PRESCRIPTION FOR
OXYCODONE FROM THE DOCTOR."
YOU KNOW WHAT IT IS?
GREAT PAINKILLERS BUT FOOLISH
TO MESS WITH IF YOU DON'T NEED
THEM.
SHE SAID, "I HAVE ALL THESE
EMOTIONAL PAINS AND I'M VERY
DEPRESSED AND I'M 70 YEARS OLD
AND DON'T LOOK LIKE I USED TO
LOOK."
I FELT LIKE CRYING ALONG WITH
HER.
SHE SAID, "I TOOK THE
PRESCRIPTION"-- ARE YOU READY?
AND IT SAID FIVE OXYCODONE.
THIS IS A 70-YEAR-OLD GRANNY,
A BUBBA, SOMEONE WHO BAKES
COOKIES AND SHE PUT A ONE IN
FRONT OF IT.
15.
"HAVE YOU EVER TAKEN ONE?
THEY'RE GOOD."
SHE SAID, "I'M NOW HOOKED ON
PRESCRIPTION DRUGS."
70 YEARS OLD.
THE BODY CAN'T FOOL YOU.
SHE SAID, "I STARTED DOING
OTHER THINGS.
I HAVE BEEN GOING INTO STORES
AND SHOPLIFTING, SMALL ITEMS,
AND I'M NOT TAKING IT BECAUSE
I NEED THE MONEY OR BECAUSE I
HAVE TO EAT.
I'M TAKING IT BECAUSE I'M
ANGRY," WHICH MADE ME THINK OF
WINONA RYDER FOR A MOMENT.
EVERYBODY KNOW HER?
I WOULD LOVE TO SEE HER TAX
RETURN.
SHE'S MAKING OODLES OF MONEY,
RIGHT, AND SHE GOES INTO SAKS
FIFTH AVENUE AND STEALS PATENT
LEATHER HANDBAGS AND A BUNCH
OF THONGS.
OF COURSE SHE HAD THE MONEY TO
PAY FOR IT.
MY INTEREST IS WHY IS SHE
GOING IN THERE TO STEAL THIS?
SHE'S ANGRY.
I BELIEVE THAT.
I WORK WITH A LOT OF PEOPLE
WHO ARE VERY ANGRY.
THE CONSTANT DRUG USE, THE
ROBOTRIPPING-- I HAVE CLIENTS
WHO CAN'T GET THEIR METHADONE,
CAN'T GET THEIR DRUG OF
CHOICE, SO THEY'LL USE
SOMETHING ELSE.
KATHY, SITTING WITH LESTER WHO
SAYS, "IS THERE SOMETHING
WRONG?
YOU SEEM DISTRACTED."
"NO, IT'S THE WINE DISTRACTING
ME."
HE SAID, "YOU'RE A GROWN
WOMAN.
GO AHEAD."
SHE POURED THE GLASS AND SAID,
"WINE WAS NEVER MY PROBLEM."
IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE THE
PROBLEM BUT IT CAN BE A
TRIGGER.
ANYBODY IN HERE EVER TRY TO
STOP SMOKING?
A LOT OF US HAVE BEEN THERE.
ARE YOU STILL SMOKING, LINDA?
I HAVE TO TALK TO YOU.
WELL, I'M STILL SMOKING!
I AM.
AND-- IT'S OKAY.
BUT THE THING IS THAT, YOU
KNOW, SO OFTEN WE FIND PEOPLE
THAT SAY, "OH, I'M TRYING TO
STOP SMOKING."
SO WHAT DO YOU DO?
YOU CHANGE PEOPLE, PLACES AND
THINGS.
IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH
ALCOHOL, DO YOU RUN TO HAPPY
HOUR?
PROBABLY NOT.
YOU'RE TRYING TO CHANGE
PEOPLE, PLACES AND THINGS, YOU
KNOW?
SO WE HAVE THIS CHARACTER WHO
SHOULD REALLY BE CHANGING
PEOPLE, PLACES AND THINGS.
WHERE IS SHE?
SITTING IN A RESTAURANT WITH
SOMEBODY WHO IS MARRIED.
HIS WEDDING BAND IN THE FILM
VERSION IS CONSTANTLY DANGLING
IN HER FACE.
SHE HAS ALL OF THESE TRIGGERS,
DOWNWARD SPIRALS THAT
BASICALLY THE CHARACTER IS
LOOKING AT: SLEEPING WITH A
MARRIED MAN, ADDRESSING THE
FACT THAT HER HUSBAND LEFT
HER.
SHE OFFERS THE REASON THAT HE
WANTED CHILDREN AND SHE
DIDN'T.
IT'S LIKE THIS INTENSE
EMOTIONAL FIREBALL THAT WE SEE
IN THIS CHARACTER AND PEOPLE
ASK, "IS THIS REALISTIC?"
I HAVE CLIENTS THAT ONCE HAD A
HOUSE, THEY DON'T HAVE A
HOUSE.
THEY COME BY CAR AND I ASK
"WHY ARE YOU TWO HOURS LATE?"
"I COULDN'T GET THE BUS."
"YOU HAD A CAR.
WHERE IS IT?"
THEY TELL ME A CRAZY STORY, "I
WAS A LITTLE UPSET, THE
HOLIDAYS ARE HERE.
I CAN'T DEAL WITH MY FAMILY.
I HAD TO GET HIGH."
"WHERE'S THE CAR?"
"WELL, I HAD TO GET HIGH THE
NEXT DAY AND THE NEXT DAY AND
I TRADED THE CAR IN."
THESE ARE VERY RATIONAL
PEOPLE, BUT THE DRUGS AND
DEPRESSION HAVE BEEN DOING
THINGS, THESE PHYSIOLOGICAL
CHANGES THAT GO ON IN THEIR
ENTIRE BODY, JUST SORT OF
TAKES THEM TO THESE OTHER
PLACES.
I HAVE CLIENTS-- YOU SAY TO
THEM, "ARE YOU HAPPY
PROSTITUTING?
ARE YOU HAPPY GETTING BEATING
UP?
ARE YOU HAPPY GETTING THROWN
OUT OF MOVING VEHICLES?"
I HAVE CLIENTS WHO ARE
PROSTITUTES AND GET RAPED AND
PEOPLE SAY, "COME ON,
JENNIFER.
HOW CAN WOMEN WHO ARE
PROSTITUTES GET RAPED?"
IF YOU LOOK AT IT AS A
BUSINESS, IF YOU AGREE TO A
CERTAIN SERVICE FOR A CERTAIN
AMOUNT OF MONEY AND SOMEONE
DECIDES THEY WANT SOMETHING
DIFFERENT AND TAKE IT WITHOUT
YOU GIVING IT TO THEM, THAT'S
RAPE.
EVEN A PROSTITUTE HAS THE
RIGHT TO SAY NO.
SO I SAY TO MY LADIES ALL THE
TIME, AND I DO HAVE SOME MEN
THAT ARE CLIENTS THAT ARE
PROSTITUTES, BUT THEY SAYS TO
ME ALL THE TIME, "I'VE GOT TO
GET OUT OF THIS.
I'VE GOT TO GET OUT OF THIS."
I SAY, "HOW ARE YOU GOING TO
DO IT?
ARE YOU GOING TO STOP
PROSTITUTING?"
"I CAN'T DO THAT BECAUSE I
HAVE A DRUG PROBLEM."
"ARE YOU GOING TO GET RID OF
THE DRUGS?"
"I CAN'T DO THAT BECAUSE I
CAN'T FACE MY ISSUES."
DO WE SEE KATHY NICOLO IN
THERE?
CERTAINLY, THIS TYPE OF
BEHAVIOR WHERE THEY NEED TO
AVOID REALITY.
I ASK THE PROSTITUTES, "DO YOU
ASK EVERY JOHN FOR A HEALTH
INSURANCE CARD WHEN YOU GET IN
HIS CAR?"
"WHY?"
"WITH ALL THE AIDS AND
EVERYTHING YOU BETTER HOPE HE
PUTS YOU ON THE HEALTH
INSURANCE BECAUSE ONCE HE'S
DONE WITH YOU, YOU'RE OUT THE
DOOR."
SO MANY MEN THAT I WORK WITH
AT ATTICA, PEOPLE SAY, "WHAT
ARE MEN AT ATTICA LIKE?"
THEY'RE LIKE ANYBODY ELSE.
MOST I HAVE NO EMPIRICAL DATA
OTHER THAN TO SAY, 90% OF THE
PEOPLE I WORKED WITH HAD
CHEMICAL DEPENDENCY ISSUES,
AND I WORKED WITH PEOPLE VERY
CLEAN IN PRISON, GOING TO
A.A., N.A., "WHY DID YOU
MURDER SO-AND-SO AND CUT THEM
UP IN 30 PIECES?"
THEY'LL TELL YOU, "I WAS AS
HIGH AS A KITE.
I DIDN'T WANT TO GROW UP BEING
A MURDERER."
"I DIDN'T WANT TO GROW UP
BEING A PROSTITUTE, A THIEF."
THEY ARE ANGRY.
THEY HAVE EMOTIONS, EMOTIONS
THAT HAVEN'T BEEN DEALT WITH.
ONE IN EVERY FOUR WOMEN HAVE
BEEN SEXUALLY ABUSED, RAPED OR
ASSAULTED BY THE TIME SHE'S
21.
DO YOU KNOW THAT THE NUMBER
FOR MEN-- ARE YOU READY?
ONE IN SEVEN MEN HAVE BEEN
RAPED OR SEXUALLY ABUSED OR
SEXUALLY ASSAULTED BY AGE 21.
THOSE ARE BASED ON NUMBERS
THAT PEOPLE SELF-REPORT.
WE ALL KNOW WE LIVE IN A TIME
AND PLACE BECAUSE OF CULTURE
AND GENDER WHERE MEN ARE
SUPPOSED TO BE STRONG,
FEARLESS.
I KNOW, WE HAVE ALL THESE
MYTHS THAT WE PACK DOWN MEN'S
THROATS.
THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE ALL OF
THESE THINGS.
THEY'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE
WEAK, CRY OR SHOW EMOTION.
THE THING IS THAT IF THE
NUMBER IS ONE IN SEVEN
SELF-REPORTED, CAN YOU IMAGINE
WHAT THE NUMBER IS REALLY?
YOU LOOK AT THESE PEOPLE AND
SAY "WHY DID THEY HAVE DRUG
PROBLEMS?"
"THEY HAVE SIGNIFICANT
ISSUES."
I SAID THIS TO PEOPLE ALL THE
TIME AND TO JUDGE KING, "THESE
ARE NOT THE PRIMARY PROBLEMS.
THEY HAVE LARGER PROBLEMS,"
LIKE KATHY NICOLO WANTING TO
HAVE HER FATHER BACK.
ALL OF A SUDDEN IN THE BOOK
SHE TURNS TO LESTER, WHO-- SHE
IS SLEEPING WITH HIM, AND SHE
SAYS, "GEE, I MISS MY FATHER."
SOME PEOPLE ARE VERY HAPPY
GOING THROUGH THE CRIMINAL
JUSTICE SYSTEM.
I KNOW PEOPLE WHO TELL ME ALL
THE TIME, "JEN, I'M VERY HAPPY
THIS WAY."
"REALLY?"
"YES, THREE HOTS AND A COT."
THEY'RE HAPPY THIS WAY.
SOMEONE TELLS THEM WHAT TO
EAT.
TALK ABOUT CONTROL.
WHEN YOU GO TO PRISON, YOU
DON'T GET TO EAT WHEN YOU WANT
TO EAT.
YOU DON'T GET TO GO TO THE
BATHROOM WHEN YOU WANT TO
EITHER.
YOU GO WHEN IT'S GOOD FOR
EVERYBODY ELSE.
YOU DON'T GET TO SHOWER WHEN
YOU WANT TO SHOWER, YOU KNOW.
SOME PEOPLE ARE VERY
COMFORTABLE.
SOME PEOPLE ARE VERY
COMFORTABLE BEING DRUG
ADDICTS.
I DON'T KNOW.
IN THE FILM VERSION, THE
BOOKS, WE SEE KATHY SUFFERING,
VOMITING, SWALLOWING PILLS AND
ALL THIS PAIN.
I HAVE ALL KINDS OF CLIENTS
THAT COME TO MY OFFICE
VOMITING OR THEY HAVE
COLLAPSED VEINS FROM NEEDLE
FIGHTS.
ANYBODY EVER SEE THAT BEFORE?
YOU HAVE TO SEE IT UP FRONT TO
BELIEVE IT, OR MASSIVE
INFECTIONS WHERE THERE'S NO
SKIN LEFT AND THEY KEEP
SHOOTING UP.
THEY TELL ME, "WHERE DO YOU
THINK I'M SHOOTING UP TODAY?"
THEY SHOW ME THEIR FEET AND
LEG AND THIGH AND EVERYTHING
ELSE.
I SAY TO THEM, "ARE YOU HAPPY
LIKE THIS?"
THEY SAY, "WELL, I DON'T KNOW
ANY OTHER WAY, YOU KNOW?"
IT'S A COPING STRATEGY, A
COPING SKILL.
I SEE A LOT OF KATHY IN MY
CLIENTS.
I'LL FINISH WITH ONE
INTERESTING THING.
BECAUSE I HAVE TWO LIVES,
SOMETIMES I LIKE MY LIVES TO
BLEND TOGETHER.
WHEN "HOUSE OF SAND AND FOG"
WAS FIRST GOING TO BE
SUGGESTED THAT WE TEACH IT, I
DECIDED TO TAKE A FEW COPIES
OF THE BOOKS-- YES, I DID
RETURN THEM, ANDY!
I TOOK A FEW COPIES OF THE
BOOKS AND I BROUGHT THEM TO MY
CITY JOB AND NOW THE AVERAGE
EDUCATION-- THE AVERAGE
EDUCATION THAT MY CLIENTS HAVE
IS PROBABLY SOMEWHERE AROUND
TENTH GRADE.
I SAID TO THEM, "I WOULD LIKE
YOU TO READ THIS AND TELL ME
WHAT YOU THINK."
ALL OF MY CLIENTS SAID THE
SAME THING, "I HAVE BEEN
KATHY.
I KNOW WHERE KATHY'S BEEN.
I HAVE BEEN THERE."
THEY START TO TELL ANECDOTAL
TALES OF HOW THEY ONCE HAD A
HOUSE; NOW THEY DON'T HAVE A
HOUSE.
THEY SLEPT IN THEIR CAR, ON
THE STREET.
ARE THEY HAPPY PEOPLE?
NO.
IT'S SUCH A MARVELOUS SHARED
EXPERIENCE THAT ALL OF YOU
HAVE SOMETHING IN COMMON
REALLY WITH THE REAL WORLD.
IT'S REALLY PHENOMENAL.
IF ANYBODY WOULD EVER LIKE TO
COME DOWN TO OUR CENTER, NOT
FOR THE SENSE OF COMING DOWN
TO BE A VOYEUR BECAUSE THAT
WOULD SORT OF BOTHER ME
BECAUSE THE PEOPLE ARE
GENUINELY-- THEY'RE HUMAN
BEINGS, TOO, BUT IF YOU WOULD
LIKE TO UNDERSTAND SOMETHING
ABOUT PHYSICAL ADDICTION, IF
YOU WOULD LIKE TO COME TO MY
OFFICE ON ANY GIVEN DAY-- WE
DON'T HAVE TO PRE-ARRANGE
THIS-- AND COME AND SEE
SOMEBODY YOUR AGE COMING AND
PASSING OUT, SHAKING, CRYING,
EMOTIONAL BAGGAGE, WRECKAGE,
LET ME KNOW.
IT'S AMAZING WHEN YOU LOOK AT
PEOPLE AND WHAT THEY GO
THROUGH WHEN THEY GET TO
THAT'S POINT.
I THINK IT'S GOOD TO BE
SYMPATHETIC.
I THINK IT'S EASY TO GET
AGITATED WITH A CHARACTER LIKE
KATHY; I REALLY DO, BUT I
DON'T KNOW; I SEE HER IN A
MORE, I GUESS, SYMPATHETIC
WAY.
I WORK WITH A LOT OF KATHYS.
THANK YOU.
(Applause)
THANK YOU.
>> THESE WERE MARVELOUS
PRESENTATIONS.
I THANK YOU BOTH VERY MUCH.
WE WOULD NOW LIKE TO HAVE
QUESTIONS FROM THE AUDIENCE,
OR IF THE PANELISTS HAVE
QUESTIONS OF EACH OTHER, THAT
TOO WOULD BE OF INTEREST.
I KNOW I CAN THINK OF ALL
KINDS OF THINGS.
HOW ABOUT YOU GO FIRST?
>> WHAT'S ROBOTRIPPING?
(Laughter)
>> ANYBODY WANT TO TELL THEM
WHAT-- YOU'RE GOING TO MAKE ME
DO IT?
WE HAVE TO HAVE THE TALK ALL
OF A SUDDEN.
ANYBODY WANT TO VENTURE UP
WHAT'S ROBOTRIPPING-- WE KNOW
YOU DON'T DO IT; YOU HAVE A
FRIEND OR WHATEVER.
COULD YOU TELL Dr. PERRY WHAT
ROBOTRIPPING IS?
>> OH, THEY KNOW.
>> JEN, WHY DON'T YOU TELL US.
>> OH, HE'S GOING TO TELL US.
>> YOU TAKE MEDICINE, TAKE IT
ALL THE WAY DOWN AND THEN YOU
COUGH, LIKE THE WHOLE
CONTAINER OF MEDICINE AND THEN
YOU COUGH?
YOU TAKE THE WHOLE THING AND
JUST-- IT'S LIKE IN THE VIAL
OR WHATEVER AND YOU JUST DO
THE WHOLE THING.
>> THAT'S PART OF IT.
I DON'T WANT TO GIVE STRICT
INSTRUCTIONS ON HOW TO DO THIS
AND THEN HAVE IT SAID, "WELL
PROFESSOR WOLFLEY TOLD US HOW
TO DO THIS..."
I'M TRYING TO-- I JUST DON'T
WANT TO GIVE THE INGREDIENTS
TO THE FUN, SHALL WE SAY.
OVER-THE-COUNTER DRUGS TODAY
IN SO MANY HIGH SCHOOL ARENAS
ARE BECOMING REALLY THE DRUG
OF CHOICE.
WHY?
IT'S ACCESSIBLE.
THEY DON'T ASK YOU USUALLY FOR
I.D. TO BUY AN
OVER-THE-COUNTER
ANTIHISTAMINE.
THEY ARE NOTHING TO FOOL
AROUND WITH, BY THE WAY,
BECAUSE THEY CAN ACCELERATE
YOUR HEARTBEAT AND NO MATTER
WHAT AGE YOU CAN HAVE A HEART
ATTACK.
USING CERTAIN KINDS OF
ELIXIRS, A NICE WAY TO PUT IT.
THE OTHER THING, MIXING IT
WITH CERTAIN INHALANTS,
OVER-THE-COUNTER, INCLUDING
DIFFERENT DETERGENTS-- BAD
IDEA.
SOME PEOPLE REPORT IT'S
HALLUCINOGENIC AND USUALLY
AFTER THEIR STOMACH HAS BEEN
PUMPED AND SOMEBODY REMINDS
THEM WHAT DAY IT IS AND THEY
TRY TO FIGURE OUT WHERE THEIR
CLOTHES ARE AND EVERYTHING
ELSE.
WOULD I SUGGEST YOU GO OUT AND
DO THIS?
NO.
ARE YOU SET, Mr. PERRY?
>> I GUESS.
>> OTHER QUESTIONS?
NOT ALL AT ONCE.
>> I HAVE ONE.
-- (Inaudible) -- A PROBLEM
THAT SEEMS TO AFFECT SOCIETY
IN GENERAL AND I WONDER--
(Inaudible) -- A CHANGE WITH
THAT, IF WE NEED TO HAVE A
BEHAVIOR TEAM ACROSS THE
BOARD.
LIKE IN EUROPE, THEY'RE DONE
DIFFERENTLY.
THERE'S A DIFFERENT THOUGHT
PROCESS THERE; THEY CHANGE
THEIR LAWS.
THIS SHOULD APPLY TO AMERICA.
WE SEEM ENTRENCHED AND MAYBE
WE SHOULD DO SOMETHING LIKE
THE EUROPEANS DO.
>> I TELL YOU, IT'S SORT OF
INTERESTING.
IN SOME EUROPEAN COUNTRIES, IF
YOU CAN REACH THE BAR, YOU CAN
GET A DRINK.
IT'S REALLY SORT OF
INTERESTING HOW THIS IS.
I MEAN I'M A PARENT MYSELF, SO
I'M GOING TO TELL YOU MY
HONEST PERSPECTIVE, AND THIS
IS INCLUDES HOW I VIEW MY OWN
CHILDREN, SO I DON'T FEEL LIKE
A HYPOCRITE.
I THINK TO TEACH PEOPLE
RESPONSIBLY HOW TO USE CERTAIN
THINGS, ESPECIALLY ALCOHOL, IS
SOMETHING THAT'S VERY
IMPORTANT.
DO I THINK THERE'S ANYTHING
MAGICAL ABOUT THE AGE OF 21?
NO.
THIS IS A WHOLE OTHER
DISCUSSION, BUT I ALSO FEEL
THAT IF PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE
IN A WAR SITUATION AND IF YOU
CAN GET MARRIED AT 18, YOU
SHOULD CERTAINLY BE ABLE TO
TAKE A DRINK AT 18, BUT THAT'S
MY OPINION.
IS THERE ANYTHING IN THE
DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 18 AND 21?
I DON'T KNOW.
SOME STATISTICS SAY THERE ARE
MORE CAR ACCIDENTS DUE TO
DRIVING DRUNK AND WHAT NOT
BETWEEN 18, 19, 20.
I DON'T NECESSARILY BELIEVE
THAT, TO BE PERFECTLY HONEST
WITH YOU.
I KNOW THERE ARE PLENTY OF
D.W.I.s-- I WAS JUST READING
IN THE PAPER TODAY, PLENTY OF
D.W.I.s OF PEOPLE MY AGE AND
OLDER WHO MISUSE ALCOHOL.
SO WE HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL WE'RE
21 TO HAVE A DRINK; IS THAT
GOING TO MAKE US ANY
DIFFERENT?
HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN ALL THE
PEOPLE OVER 21 IN JAIL FOR
D.W.I.s AND D.U.I.s?
IN SOME COUNTRIES THEY DON'T
ARREST FOR MARIJUANA OR
HEROIN.
I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S THE RIGHT
OR WRONG THING TO DO, BUT
DRUGS AND DRUG ADDICTION IS A
BIG MONEY-MAKER IN THIS
COUNTRY.
WHERE IS IT WRITTEN THAT YOU
HAVE TO HAVE 28 DAYS IN A
HOSPITAL TO GET WELL-- I DON'T
UNDERSTAND THAT NUMBER.
DOES IT HAVE SOMETHING TO
DO WITH THE MOON EVERY MONTH?
YOU HAVE TO HAVE 28 DAYS IN
INPATIENT BEDS TO GET CLEAN
BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT INSURANCE
WILL PAY FOR.
BUT IT'S BIG MONEY.
PRISONS ARE BIG MONEY.
DRUG ADDICTION PAYS.
IT'S PART OF OUR ECONOMY.
>> HOW IS IT BIG MONEY?
>> HOW?
LOOK AT THE PEOPLE EMPLOYED.
LOOK AT THE PRISONS WITHIN 30
MILES OF US.
ATTICA, WHICH I WORKED IN;
GROVELAND, ALBION, ORLEANS
CORRECTIONAL, LIVINGSTON
CORRECTIONAL.
MONROE COUNTY HAS SO MANY
PEOPLE THEY NOW HAVE TWO
JAILS.
IT'S REALLY AMAZING.
IT'S BIG MONEY.
LOOK HOW MANY PEOPLE IT
EMPLOYS.
THE AVERAGE CORRECTIONS WORKER
MAKES $41,000 A YEAR WITH A
HIGH SCHOOL DIPLOMA.
THEY MAKE BIG MONEY.
>> ISN'T THERE A JAIL RIGHT
NEXT TO THE DORMS AT THE
M.C.C.
>> THAT'S THE ONE I WORK IN.
EVERY OTHER FRIDAY I RUN MY
PROGRAMS THERE.
>> QUESTIONS?
>> I HAVE ONE.
I HAVE ONE-- (Inaudible)
YOU TALKED ABOUT THE TITLE AND
I DIDN'T QUITE GET IT.
CAN YOU EXPLAIN THAT AGAIN
PLEASE?
GO OVER THAT AGAIN, PLEASE,
YOUR IDEA ABOUT THE TITLE OF
"HOUSE OF SAND AND FOG"?
>> WELL, WHAT DOES SAND MEAN
TO YOU?
IT'S SOMETHING YOU CAN'T GET
YOUR HANDS ON, THAT SLIPS
THROUGH YOUR FINGERS WHEN YOU
TRY TO TAKE A HANDFUL OF IT?
WHAT IS FOG?
A MIST, AGAIN SOMETHING YOU
CAN'T GRASP, SOMETHING YOU
CAN'T GET YOUR HANDS ON.
IT'S SOMETHING THAT'S OUT
THERE AND WE KNOW THAT-- WE
HAVE A FEELING THAT IT'S REAL
AND WE HAVE A FEELING THAT WE
SHOULD BE ABLE TO GRASP ON TO
THE AMERICAN DREAM, AND I KNOW
PART OF YOUR COLLEGE EDUCATION
IS PART OF THE AMERICAN
DREAM.
THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE DOING HERE,
HOPING THAT YOU CAN GRAB ON TO
A SECTION OF THAT AMERICAN
DREAM, AND I DON'T WANT TO BE
LIKE A MAJOR DOWNER AND
TELLING YOU IT DOESN'T EXIST,
BUT QUITE FRANKLY, FOR THE
VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE,
SELF-DETERMINATION TO THE
DEGREE THAT'S PROPAGATED AS
THE AMERICAN DREAM IS JUST NOT
POSSIBLE.
80% OF PEOPLE WILL BE IN THE
SAME INCOME STANDING AS THEIR
PARENTS WERE IN.
THAT MEANS 20% WILL BE LOWER
OR HIGHER.
SO THESE ARE NOT STATISTICS
I'M MAKING UP OR SOMETHING TO
DEPRESS YOU-- I DO ENCOURAGE
YOU TO CONTINUE YOUR SCHOOLING
AND NOT DROP OUT AND BE LIKE
IN THE DECLINE, BUT I THINK
YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THE
AMERICAN DREAM FOR WHAT IT
REALLY IS AND THE REAL POWER
OF IT, WHICH IS THAT OF AN
IDEOLOGY, AN IDEOLOGY THAT
HELPS US TO BLAME THE VICTIM
IF THEY AREN'T BILL GATES.
OKAY?
SO THAT'S MY INTERPRETATION
ANYWAY OF "SAND AND FOG."
PROBABLY TOTALLY WRONG AND
LITERATURE PROFESSORS WILL RIP
ME A NEW ONE IN E-MAILS, BUT
THAT'S MY INTERPRETATION.
>> ONE QUESTION.
I THINK THE BEHAVIOR, ONE FROM
WHICH I SUFFER, VIDEO GAMES.
I THINK THIS IS A VERY BIG
PROBLEM IN THE UNITED STATES.
I DON'T KNOW IF ANYBODY'S DONE
ANY RESEARCH ON IT, BUT I
DON'T KNOW OF ANY RESEARCH ON
IT, BUT I WOULD EXPECT MOST OF
US HAVE GAMES ON OUR COMPUTERS
AND VIDEO GAMES AND CAN YOU
IMAGINE THE AMOUNT OF
PRODUCTIVITY LOST?
A FRIEND OF MINE HAS AN
INTERNET CHARACTER THAT HE
REPORTED TO ME-- HE'S BEEN
PLAYING THIS INTERNET
CHARACTER IN AN R.P.G.,
PLAYING GAMES, FOR THREE
YEARS, AND HE HAS 171 DAYS ON
THE CHARACTER.
THAT MEANS 24 HOURS A DAY FOR
171 DAYS ON ONE CHARACTER!
AND I DON'T-- IS THAT AN
OUTLANDISH KIND OF THING?
YOU GUYS PLAY VIDEO GAMES,
DON'T YOU?
YEAH...
I TELL YOU THE BEST THING YOU
CAN DO, EVEN THOUGH IT MIGHT
BE USING BEHAVIOR OR MIGHT BE
TRYING TO AVOID THAT
ADDICTION, IS TO ZAP THOSE
GAMES OFF YOUR MACHINE.
IT'S THE ONLY WAY YOU'RE GOING
TO BE SUCCESSFUL.
>> I HAD A STUDENT LAST
QUARTER WHO MISSED HIS FINAL
BECAUSE HE STOOD IN LINE AT
THE MALL FOR 24 HOURS SO HE
COULD BUY HALO 2.
>> YOU GUYS HAVE TO BE CAREFUL
WITH THAT STUFF BECAUSE IT
CAN-- IT CAN POSSIBLY LEAD
INTO OTHER FORMS OF ADDICTION.
BELIEVE ME, YOU DO GET ANGRY
WHEN YOU CAN'T DO IT.
I DON'T KNOW IF YOU GUYS HAVE
NOTICED THAT EITHER.
IT'S A LOT OF ANGER.
>> OKAY.
YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO LEAVE
UNTIL YOU ASK ANOTHER
QUESTION.
LINDA HAS A QUESTION.
>> YES, I HAVE A QUESTION,
ADDRESSED-- (Inaudible) --
FIRST HAVING TO DO WITH-- YOU
HAVE GIVEN US SOME VERY
DEPRESSING INFORMATION, OKAY?
PEOPLE COME IN TO SEE YOU,
JEN, AND THERE'S NOTHING YOU
CAN DO.
YOU ASK IF THEY'RE HAPPY AND
THEY'RE NOT HAPPY, AND YOU CAN
JUST TELL US.
SO WHAT HELPS?
WHAT CAN YOU DO?
IF THE SYMPTOM ISN'T WHAT YOU
WANT TO TREAT, IF THE REAL
ISSUES ARE EMOTIONAL OR
ABANDONMENT, SINCE YOU CAN'T
BE EVERYBODY'S MOM-- CLOSE BUT
NOT EVERYBODY'S-- WHAT CAN YOU
DO ABOUT THAT?
THAT'S ONE QUESTION.
SECOND QUESTION HAS TO DO WITH
ADDICTION.
CAN YOU MAKE A DISTINCTION
BETWEEN ADDICTIONS WHICH ARE
RELATIVELY HARMLESS, LIKE MY
ADDICTION FOR READING POETRY,
AND ADDICTIONS THAT TURN YOU
INTO A PHYSICAL WRECK?
I -- VIDEO GAMES ARE SOMEWHERE
IN BETWEEN?
I DON'T KNOW.
>> THEY TURN YOU INTO A
PHYSICAL-- OKAY.
THOSE ARE MY QUESTIONS.
HOW DO YOU HELP PEOPLE
SUFFERING FROM ADDICTION?
AND THE SECOND IS HOW DO YOU
DISTINGUISH BETWEEN DIFFERENT
KINDS OF ADDICTIONS?
THEY CAN'T ALL BE EQUALLY
DANGEROUS.
>> I THINK QUITE HONESTLY IF
YOU'RE DOING-- YES, I'M WIRED
FOR SOUND.
IF YOU'RE DOING SOMETHING
THAT'S GOING TO IMPEDE YOUR
EVERY DAY ABILITY TO MAINTAIN
YOURSELF, WHETHER IT'S THE
SHOWERING, BRUSHING THE TEETH
-- THEY CALL IT A.D.L.s,
ACTIVITIES OF DAILY LIVING.
I THINK IF YOU HAVE AN
ADDICTION THAT'S NOT WORKING
FOR YOU AND IT'S BAD AND IT'S
IMPEDING YOUR ABILITY TO GET
TO WORK, IMPEDING YOUR ABILITY
TO HAVE RELATIONSHIPS WITH
OTHER PEOPLE, IMPEDING YOUR
ABILITY TO HAVE SOME KIND OF
ECONOMY, PERSONAL FISCAL
ECONOMY, IMPEDING YOUR ABILITY
TO FEEL ANYTHING-- I HAVE TO
BE HONEST WITH YOU; THAT'S A
GOOD QUESTION.
THE CHAT INDUSTRY, YAHOO,
A.O.L., THEY'RE MAKING BIG
MONEY WITH THESE POP-UPS.
IT'S BECOMING AN ADDICTION.
IT'S NOT ONLY THE SEX CHAT
ROOMS BUT THE EVERY DAY CHAT
ROOMS, THESE FANTASY WORLDS
WHERE PEOPLE FEEL THEY HAVE
CONTROL.
THEY CAN LET ON AND BE AS
VULNERABLE AS THEY LIKE TO OR
TAKE ON A WHOLE OTHER PERSONA.
PEOPLE CALL IN SICK DAYS AT
WORK.
I KNOW PEOPLE WHO HAVE HAD
THESE TYPES OF ADDICTIONS THAT
SAY THEY'RE GOING TO WORK OR
GET TO WORK AND LOG ON AND SIT
THERE ALL DAY.
IF IT'S IMPEDING YOUR ABILITY
TO BE HEALTHY AND WELL, I
THINK IT'S A BAD ADDICTION,
JUST LIKE CONSUMING TOO MUCH
CHOCOLATE OR AN ADDICTION TO
CREDIT CARDS.
I KNOW A LOT OF PEOPLE HERE
HAVE CREDIT PROBLEMS.
THEY WERE SAYING ON THE
NIGHTLY NEWS HOW MANY STUDENT
ARE GOING TO GRADUATE IN DEBT,
NOT BECAUSE OF THESE STUDENT
LOANS BUT BECAUSE OF CREDIT
CARDS.
BUY NOW, PAY LATER.
BUY NOW, NEVER PAY.
MY MOTHER USED TO SAY, "THIS
IS THE GREATEST COUNTRY IN THE
WORLD."
MY MOTHER WASN'T FROM HERE.
"IT'S THE ONLY COUNTRY I COULD
EVER IMAGINE WHERE YOU GO TALK
TO A WINDOW AND SOME STRANGE
PERSON THROWS FOOD OUT OF IT."
WE'RE ONE OF THE ONLY
COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD THAT
GOES HUNTING ON A FULL
STOMACH.
WE LOVE THAT!
WE LOVE THIS WHOLE THING OF
CONSPICUOUS CONSUMPTION.
ANYBODY HERE EVER GO INTO
AMERICAN EAGLE?
HOW MANY SHIRTS, THE SAME
SHIRT, IN RED, CRIMSON,
SCARLET, NAVY, LIGHT BLUE...
WHY?
IT'S TWELVE DIFFERENT SHIRTS
AND WE HAVE TO HAVE ALL TWELVE
SHIRTS.
WE SAW THE WHITE SHIRT, THE
DARK GRAY, THE CHARCOAL... WE
LOVE CONSPICUOUS CONSUMPTION.
WE WIND UP FORMING ADDICTIONS
IN ORDER TO GET THINGS.
>> YOU SAID THE NOVEL WAS
GENDER-NEUTRAL.
(Inaudible)
.... OUR PERCEPTION OF WOMEN
IN SOCIETY AFFECTS THE WAY WE
UNDERSTAND THE NOVEL?
>> I'LL TELL YOU, I'M SO GLAD
YOU ASKED THAT AND I'M GOING
TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION.
I HAVE A REAL GOOD ANSWER FOR
THIS.
A WOMAN GOES TO JAIL, TO
PRISON, FOR 28 DAYS AND THEY
SAY TO THE PERSON, "WHERE ARE
YOUR CHILDREN?
WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU'RE IN
JAIL?
WHO'S TAKING CARE OF YOUR
FAMILY?"
THERE'S A LOT OF PUNITIVE
ACTIVITY TOWARD THE FEMALE
WHEN SHE GOES INTO A
CORRECTIONAL FACILITY.
WHEN A MAN GOES IN, "WELL,
HE'S GETTING HELP.
WELL, YOU KNOW..."
PEOPLE DON'T ASK MOST MEN IN
PRISON, "WHO'S TAKING CARE OF
YOUR CHILDREN."
ANYBODY READ "THE DEMOCRAT AND
CHRONICLE" TODAY?
ANYBODY HAVE ACCESS TO IT.
IT'S INTERESTING.
THERE'S A JUDGE IN MONROE
COUNTY, AND I DON'T REMEMBER
HER NAME.
YOU SAW IT, PROFESSOR HESS?
THE JUDGE RULED THAT THIS
WOMAN COULD NO LONGER
PROCREATE, AND THAT'S WHAT IT
SAID IN "THE DEMOCRAT AND
CHRONICLE."
SHE CAN NO LONGER POO-POO, I
SUPPOSE.
THE JUDGE SAID, "YOU HAVE
SEVEN CHILDREN AND YOU MAY NOT
HAVE ANY MORE AND WE'RE GOING
TO HAVE TO FORCE YOU TO BE
STERILIZED."
NOW, HOW MANY MEN-- I'M NOT
MAKING THIS UP; IT'S IN THE
"D&C."
HOW MANY MEN DO WE KNOW WITH
SEVEN, EIGHT, NINE, FIFTEEN
CHILDREN, PAYING CHILD
SUPPORT?
DO WE SAY, "OH, YOU MUST HAVE
A VASECTOMY"?
I NEVER HEARD OF COURT-ORDERED
VASECTOMIES.
>> NOT ONLY THAT-- (Inaudible)
-- ON CNN AND PEOPLE WERE
CALLING IN AND ONE MAN SAID,
"WE SHOULD LOCK HER UP UNTIL
SHE REACHES MENOPAUSE.
THAT WOULD SOLVE THE PROBLEM."
OTHER COMMENTS WERE INCREDIBLY
ANGRY AND PUNITIVE.
(Inaudible)
...THIS KIND OF THING.
>> IT'S REALLY AN AMAZING
THING.
WOMEN ARE REALLY HELD TO A
DIFFERENT STANDARD IN SOME
CASES THAN MEN.
ON THE FLIP SIDE, MEN ARE HELD
TO DIFFERENT STANDARDS THAN
WOMEN.
WHEN WE SEE CRYING MEN, WE
SAY, "OH, GEE, MEN DON'T CRY.
THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE TOUGH."
THAT'S NOT FAIR EITHER.
BUT CERTAINLY WHEN WOMEN ARE--
WE'RE CONSIDERED TO BE
CAREGIVERS.
WE'RE SUPPOSED TO BE TAKING
CARE OF PEOPLE.
WE'RE SUPPOSED TO BE HOME AND
EARTH, AND SO WHEN WE FAIL TO
DO THAT, YOU PAY SERIOUS
SOCIAL CONSEQUENCES FOR THAT.
DID I ANSWER YOUR QUESTION?
>> I THINK KATHY WAS-- IF
KATHY WERE A MALE CHARACTER,
THERE WOULD BE A LITTLE LESS
STIGMA THERE, A LITTLE LESS
UNDERSTANDING, SO THAT IT'S
FEMALE IS A LITTLE MORE
BELIEVABLE...
(Inaudible)
BASKET CASES THAN THE WAY MEN
ARE PORTRAYED.
>> LIKE WE HEAR THE WORDS
"HYSTERICAL FEMALE."
HAVE YOU EVER HEARD ANYBODY
SAY "OH, HE'S AN HYSTERICAL
MALE"?
>> HYSTERIA SUPPOSEDLY COMES
FROM "THE UTERUS."
>> THANK YOU, ANDY.
I KNOW ALL ABOUT THE UTERUS.
>> I DIDN'T MAKE THAT UP.
ANYBODY ELSE?
>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR
BEING WITH US, JENNIFER AND
JEANETTE, Dr. WOLFLEY,
Dr. MITCHELL.
I THINK BOTH OUR SPEAKERS WILL
BE AVAILABLE FOR A FEW MORE
MINUTES AFTER THE TALKS, SO IF
YOU HAVE QUESTIONS YOU WISH TO
ADDRESS PERSONALLY, YOU CAN DO
THAT.
(Applause)
Maintained by Susan Mee